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| EMPTYING PEWS | |
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| Topic Started: Monday, 2. October 2006, 11:21 (1,617 Views) | |
| Gerard | Tuesday, 3. October 2006, 15:35 Post #31 |
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Patrick Rose accused me of marketing protestant pentecostalism. The form of words used may not produce a verdict guilty of calumny in a court of law. That does not mean the crime was not committed. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 3. October 2006, 15:40 Post #32 |
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Rose and Patrick
Calumny? Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 3. October 2006, 15:43 Post #33 |
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All, I will end my contribution to this thread with a statistic. It might take me a little time to find the exact numbers. But I promise it will be worth the wait. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Angus Toanimo | Tuesday, 3. October 2006, 16:08 Post #34 |
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No Calumny there, Gerry. We're talking about Pentecostals outside the Catholic Church, aren't we? It is a fact that most convicted and imprisoned 'lifer' criminals who 'find God' do so in the Born-Again Christian denomination. How? Because their Pastors are the only ones within the Prison Chaplaincy who go around the wings of Prisons and preach. Most other members of Prison Chaplaincy teams are there to provide religious services, offer support and counselling. None of the chaplains attempt to prosetylise (sp?) apart from the chaplains who are non-Catholic Pentecostals. How do I know? I personally know a member of the RC Chaplaincy Team at a prison in Milton Keynes, Bucks. Walk into any non-Catholic Pentecostal Church and ask how many have been to prison for serious crime and found Jesus. Well, you won't need to, they will tell you when they praise the Lord during the service. I know, I've been and I've heard it. Therefore I maintain Rose's assertion:
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 3. October 2006, 16:22 Post #35 |
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Patrick, So you are saying this is a compliment? Its what Jesus did then and would do now? Yes, you are correct :D . Thank you for showing me this. Praise God. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Michael | Tuesday, 3. October 2006, 17:01 Post #36 |
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gerry i can not comment on what was wrong with your parish, but our parish was recovering / thriving until the new priest and the fabric committee got their mitts on it, the other parish i attend for sunday mass is also full of young and old alike, perhaps the problem lies in the catechis they were providing their kids that they are pentecostal. you say let the holy spirit in, we certainly do, rosary before mass then there is the lead up to the eucharist, take this all of you, if you dont get moved by those words and those that follow it then i would question if you are guided by the spirit, the eucharistic prayer fills me with wonder and awe and humbles me every sunday, open your heart to the spirituality of holy mass and you will find it fulfills you more than any other form of worship, there and only there we are one body in christ, michael |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 3. October 2006, 17:11 Post #37 |
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It is some years since I have been in any major city. However I am told that the attendance of students, at Brompton and Birmingham Oratory and other churches where liturgy is of a rather traditional bent, is growing rapidly. Has it struck you, Gerry that a lot of people who are now over 60 stayed at home on Sundays rather than put up with charismatic domination of their parishes. Parents kept their children away. Many of those children are now the parents of a children who never go to any church. Mind bending? Yes. Over twenty converts in our parish in one day. When the CCR priest left, they left. Some just dropped off and went nowhere. A married couple who had come back to the Church on an emotional high did the rounds, looking for "lively worship" and last thing I knew were doing door to door evangelisation for the Jehovah Witnesses. Funny Patrick should mention prisoners. The husband in that couple had got drunk some years previously, and killed his dog. He had been the local "heavy boy". Manipulative? Yes. "Depression is not a medical condition. It is the work of Satan. You need deliverance from oppression from evil spirits that hold you in bondage." That was said to my friend who had suffered from manic depression all her adult life. On the priest's advice she threw away her medication. The bishop had ordered the priest (not a parish priest) not to carry out any more exorcisms or deliverances. The priest obeyed. The bishop had forgotten to order him not to refer people to a certain layman who was carrying out unauthorised exorcisms from his sitting room. My friend's husband drove her a long long way, against his better judgement. His wife's condition deteriorated rapidly. |
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| EROS | Tuesday, 3. October 2006, 17:31 Post #38 |
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Excuse me. I started this thread to ask why the people are leaving the church, not for all to have a slanging match about who is right and who is wrong about ccr ect. My own personal feeling are well known on the matter of the CCR, I think that they are a load of nuts and will do anything to change your way of thinking to thier way, but that is my own view. But I asked why are people leaving the church, and I think it is because there are to many things to do and a lot of the younger people would prefere to do them. With all the attraction down here in Cornwall I can see why. So please stop the silly aurguing and think. |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 3. October 2006, 17:43 Post #39 |
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You have a point, EROS. Confession time for Rose: When I was in the RAF, I had loads of company. We girls would go into town together on Saturday, have lunch and do some shopping. On pay day all the single men and women walked down the hill to the village pub - and we walked back, at least two miles up a hill to the base on the top of Salisbury Plain. On other evenings we might stay in, play cards, and have a laugh, or go to the NAAFI. Life was fun. I went home on leave and got bored out of my mind. Come Thursday, I went to Benediction, knowing my old pals from the parish would be there. I am not particularly proud to admit I told my friend I had suddenly realised I was there for the wrong reason - something to do, somewhere to go, and to pick up the threads of my old social life. The Church as a community had little competition. It was similar for most of our neighbours whose leisure time revolved around Church or Chapel. Nowadays there are so many opportunities for social and leisure life, the truth is out. A lot of people used to go to Church or Chapel for the social and community aspects. Now there is only one motive: Faith. |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 3. October 2006, 18:20 Post #40 |
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EROS feel free to express your views about CCR but please do not call CCR members "a load of nuts". |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 3. October 2006, 18:39 Post #41 |
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Eros, But please feel free to call us manipulative mind benders, protestants, who prey on vulnerable people. The moderators will let you do that.
Well here are some of my thoughts. 1. Because they can. Not as silly as it sounds - in past times you could be ostracised for failure to conform. People were under great social pressure to go to church. 2. Because the church does not live what it preaches. Statistics for mariage breakdown are similar for catholics as for unbelievers. Likewise adultery. How many children do your catholic friends have? more than your non-catholic friends? catholics pursue money and materialism much as society. So what do we have to offer? 3. Because the catholic church in the uk is inward looking and does not go out preaching, evangelising and proselytising (thanks Patrick). 4. Because we dont take in the poor, the old, the homeless, the prisoners, the lonely, the mentally ill. 5. We dont offer Bible study, social clubs, prayer meetings, teaching days, film nights, youth clubs, dances. 6. Because in the UK we are evangelised by our society and its not us evangelising our society. Gerry P.S. Please note i said WE |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 3. October 2006, 19:09 Post #42 |
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Ok Gerard I consider that within CCR there is a manipulative mind bending culture, in which vulnerable people are targeted. That is not name calling. "the moderators" do not necessarily think alike. Gerry my friend, you are not a protestant, you are a Catholic. Actually I do not think "protestant" is an insult. To use a hackneyed phrase: Some of my best friends are protestants. The church in the UK is too inward looking, I call it the parish ghetto mentallity. We advertise RCIA courses on posters. "Would you like to know more about the Catholic Faith" Where we put the posters? Not in the library, shop windows or public places. We put them on church notice boards where Catholics can see them. "Parish workers" do look after the sick, the housebound, etc - sick and housebound Catholics. Be fair Gerry. Some parishes and priests do sterling work for the poor, the homeless, the prisoners, the lonely, the mentally ill. Many offer Bible study, social clubs, prayer meetings, teaching days, film nights, youth clubs, dances. |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 3. October 2006, 19:24 Post #43 |
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Just to lighten up the proceedings: Being entitled a State Retirement Pension I am, according to the Department of Work and Pensions, OLD. Volunteer required. Will some kind soul please take me in. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 3. October 2006, 19:32 Post #44 |
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Rose, I almost used the words "inward looking". We agree on some things. Parishes used to do these things (except Bible study - thats not Catholic )Some may still do but I dont know where they are. I thought members might say "but we do xyz in our parish". Can I add another? 7. Catholics don't contribute much of their money. We tend to think church comes free. Where protestants tithe 10% and some even 20% I dread to think what catholics give towards the financing of all the things a parish might do. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 3. October 2006, 20:20 Post #45 |
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Gerry I agree Catholics need to give more. Being an accountant and having a tendency to delve into financial information, when the annual accounts are published I immediately divide the annual offerings by the average weekly attendance. £2 per week seems to be an average. That seems tight fisted. However in some parishes there is much generosity via fund raising events. I am against tithing in this day and age. A parish priest once had a suggestion, from a Parish Council member, that we should tithe. The pp pointed out that the Temple used to be responsible for the welfare of widows and orphans who had no living relatives, and for medical care, plus many communal facilities. Nowadays, said the parish priest, we contribute to those through our taxes and National Insurance. We pay 22% Income Tax, add to that 17.5% on most spending, a hidden tax levy on all insurance, excise duty on fuel for transport, our Council tax, Road Tax and goodness knows what else. A person on £20,000 income is lucky to get away without contributing half to the State. Parishes produce annual budgets. I have never seen one. Do you know how much dioceses levy on parishes? 15% of total Offertory and Inland Revenue Gift Aid income is about average,even for small parishes that have very low incomes. |
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