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The Atonement; Human suffering
Topic Started: Wednesday, 27. September 2006, 18:23 (505 Views)
PJD

The Atonement
[JARay tract]

With thanks for the good progress being made by JARay’s brother, and in deference to the excellent passage he compiled in relation to The Atonement, I have posted his contributions thus:

JARay Posted: May 17 2006, 02:41 PM

This is perhaps the hardest of all subjects to talk about. Not very long ago on totalcatholic there was a thread started by one who is not a member here, which questioned whether the "Theology" of suffering was at fault. As it turned out the matter had arisen because the poster felt inadequate to comfort and console another person. It was in fact his personal skills in counselling which were faulty.
That said, I was asked why Jesus had to suffer as he did, Wasn't his death more than enough?
My reply at that time was that Jesus had to show the full horror of the depths of sin. Remember he was offering all this suffering for all sins and for all time.
Later I did a bit more reading of the Theology of Christ's suffering and I must say again, it is not easy for us to see. The argument runs that sin offends infinitely. It is a rejection of the infinite God and God Himself is totally justified in exacting an infinite punishment for the infinite insult that it is.
Hence, to turn away the Father's totally justified anger at the infinite insult offered, there has to be an infinite act of self-abnegation offered to justify the Father in not carrying out the justifiable punishment which sin desrves.
Now Jesus is God hence the total self-abnegation which he offered to turn away the Father's anger, is an infinite, total self-abnegation. Only he could make such an offering. Nobody else could. It has been revealed to Julian of Norwich that Jesus said "If I could have suffered more, I would have done so" More was not possible!!!
And, by virtue of that suffering, we can call on the Father to forgive our sins and He is justified in forgiving them.
The hard bit for us is to understand the justification bit.
We can see the 'loving' Father but we have difficulty with the 'justifying' Father.

Now where does our suffering come in?
With all kinds of circumstances, suffering is a result. This is a purely natural phenomenon. In itself it has no value, it is just the result of certain things happening.
However, we can make it of value if we do in fact "offer it up". But that is an act of our will. We can choose to do it, or not to do it. If we choose to do it then it can be given a value. Otherwise it is simply a result of our condition.

JARay
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Josephine
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"The word Sacrifice comes from the Latin word, sacrificium, which is

composed of two words:sacrum which means 'holy' and facere which

means 'to make.' And so the concept of sacrifice is the act of making something

holy
, by offering something or setting it apart for God."

This is the opening paragraph of an article on "The legacy of Sacrifice" by Rev. Matthew Maurillo in the current issue (which I received yesterday) of "Soul" the Official Publication of World Apostolate of Fatima. His italics, not mine. It's an excellent magazine.

Josephine
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Rose of York
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PJD
Sep 27 2006, 06:23 PM

Now where does our suffering come in?
With all kinds of circumstances, suffering is a result. This is a purely natural phenomenon. In itself it has no value, it is just the result of certain things happening.
However, we can make it of value if we do in fact "offer it up". But that is an act of our will. We can choose to do it, or not to do it. If we choose to do it then it can be given a value. Otherwise it is simply a result of our condition.

JARay

An explanation of the meaning of "offering it up" would be helpful to converts and any cradle catholics who do not understand the term.

Who's going to volunteer to supply the information?

(Please)
Keep the Faith!

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Angus Toanimo
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Rose of York
Oct 7 2006, 11:17 PM
PJD
Sep 27 2006, 06:23 PM

Now where does our suffering come in?
With all kinds of circumstances, suffering is a result. This is a purely natural phenomenon. In itself it has no value, it is just the result of certain things happening.
However, we can make it of value if we do in fact "offer it up". But that is an act of our will. We can choose to do it, or not to do it. If we choose to do it then it can be given a value. Otherwise it is simply a result of our condition.

JARay

An explanation of the meaning of "offering it up" would be helpful to converts and any cradle catholics who do not understand the term.

Who's going to volunteer to supply the information?

(Please)


Suffering and pain are unavoidable in this life. The question is what do we do with it when it comes. For most people suffering is a meaningless, causeless hateful experience. But we know that the suffering of Jesus is the cause of our Christian hope and the source of our Salvation.

When we experience pain we share something of Our Lord's sacrifice. As he offered up His pain and death as an acceptable sacrifice before the Father so can we. Instead of experiencing pain as a purely personal, self-centered experience we can offer it as a prayer for those we love to the One we love above all.

Pain does not thereby become less painful but it does become more useful. We pray with our pain.

Hope that helps.
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Rose of York
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This is worthy of a really good discussion, I never understood why it never really got off the ground.

A little story:

A woman who appears to "have it all", ie well paid job in a satisfying career, that offers world wide travel, lovely large country cottage in an area with little crime, good health, happy marriage, plenty of social life, said of a man who suffers constant ill health "He taught me a lesson. He tries to be cheerful, never takes it out of anybody. He takes pleasure in the simple things of life and is so grateful when he has a reasonable day and gets out. He has taught me not to set too much store on whatever little problems I have. I used to worry about rises and falls in the value of shares and property prices. One man who has far less than I has taught me that what I thought mattered, does not. Does he realise how much good he does others?"
Keep the Faith!

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MickCook
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Patrick said:

Quote:
 
Pain does not thereby become less painful but it does become more useful. We pray with our pain.



Rose's story:

Quote:
 

A woman who appears to "have it all", ie well paid job in a satisfying career, that offers world wide travel, lovely large country cottage in an area with little crime, good health, happy marriage, plenty of social life, said of a man who suffers constant ill health "He taught me a lesson. He tries to be cheerful, never takes it out of anybody. He takes pleasure in the simple things of life and is so grateful when he has a reasonable day and gets out. He has taught me not to set too much store on whatever little problems I have. I used to worry about rises and falls in the value of shares and property prices. One man who has far less than I has taught me that what I thought mattered, does not. Does he realise how much good he does others?"


Put both together and we learn that we pray and we teach with our pain.

Just a thought.
:)
Mick
The Cook Companies
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jimc1
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Rose of York
Oct 7 2006, 10:17 PM
PJD
Sep 27 2006, 06:23 PM

Now where does our suffering come in?
With all kinds of circumstances, suffering is a result. This is a purely natural phenomenon. In itself it has no value, it is just the result of certain things happening.
However, we can make it of value if we do in fact "offer it up". But that is an act of our will. We can choose to do it, or not to do it. If we choose to do it then it can be given a value. Otherwise it is simply a result of our condition.

JARay

An explanation of the meaning of "offering it up" would be helpful to converts and any cradle catholics who do not understand the term.

Who's going to volunteer to supply the information?

(Please)


imho suffering and pain and death were not in the original plan but are man made for which the punishment had to fit the crime and the offence was against the King of Kings and a Kings ransom could only be paid by a human King of Kings -jimc1
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PJD


True pain and death were not in the original plan - but the original plan included free will. The problem for theologians regarding suffering therefore lays in the fact that God, by ordaining free will, foresaw that man could break up the original plan; which Adam and Eve did.

PJD
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medjugorje vin


Jesus said to St Faustina:"They can walk through the door of My Mercy or pass through the door of My Justice."

By walking through the door of Our Saviour's Mercy we are using our freewill to accept His Mercy which does infinitely more good.By passing through the door of His Justice means we have waited till death to accept His Mercy.

We cannot expect to continually sin against God without having to face His Justice.The conflict for people is where they are told that God is all loving,yet He permits certain things to happen which then leads to people questioning His Love.God's Love is incomprehensible to man, therefore, He teaches us through the Holy Spirit like a parent does to a child,giving it in little bits so that it does not overwhelm the child and misunderstanding ensues.

If you look at His Passion and study it closely there was not a bit of Him both mentally and physically which remained untouched by those who carried out His suffering and He had to live with the knowledge all His life that this is exactly how it would be.How many of us could live with that knowledge?

Even the Apostles after all they had seen and heard,all the time they spent with Jesus, scattered at the hour of His need.Peter who had witnessed the "Transfiguration" denied Jesus 3 times.

However,after Pentecost they were like lion's,no fear,no apprehension.Courage,Wisdom,Knowledge,Strength,Perseverance and a True Love of God and fear of no man.

The Gift of the Holy Spirit was the difference ,we can do nothing without God,we cannot tolerate anything,pain,anguish,despair,hopelessness, unless God is with us.

Notebook II(921)

Feb 6th 1937.Today the Lord said to me:"My daughter,I am told that there is much simplicity in you,so why do you not tell Me about everything that concerns you,even the smallest details?Tell Me about everything,and know that this will give Me great joy.

I answered"But you know about everything,Lord"And Jesus replied to me,"Yes I do know;but you should not excuse yourself with the fact that I know,but with childlike simplicity talk to Me about everything,for My ears and Heart are inclined towards you,and your words are dear to Me."

Praised be Jesus and Mary ALWAYS

Medjugorje Vin
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jimc1
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PJD
May 13 2007, 07:26 PM
True pain and death were not in the original plan - but the original plan included free will. The problem for theologians regarding suffering therefore lays in the fact that God, by ordaining free will, foresaw that man could break up the original plan; which Adam and Eve did.

PJD



Yes but HE knew this part of the plan and also the total plan-we do not know the total plan for sure but try to unravel and know it and that is why I am asking the questions like Omni on another thread and loking for answers-jimc1
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PJD


jim1:

In reply to your posting I would refer you to the words of St. Bonaventure:

“if anyone asks why God did not make a better world or make this world better, no answer can be given except that He so willed and that He Himself knows the reasons”.

Apart from that, Catholic theologians insist that there is a solution to the problems so posed even though we cannot provide it; the answer to which is at present veiled from us. In the meantime therefore we must rest content with Faith in the Omnipotence of God’s goodness.

The total plan is as God has already foreseen; and is unravelled as the history of providence rolls on, or as the theologians infer above - should the present veil be torn from their eyes.

PJD

[If you haven’t got answers on the Omni thread – I suggest you say so there (smile)]
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jimc1
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PJD
May 15 2007, 08:13 PM
jim1:

In reply to your posting I would refer you to the words of St. Bonaventure:

“if anyone asks why God did not make a better world or make this world better, no answer can be given except that He so willed and that He Himself knows the reasons”.

Apart from that, Catholic theologians insist that there is a solution to the problems so posed even though we cannot provide it; the answer to which is at present veiled from us. In the meantime therefore we must rest content with Faith in the Omnipotence of God’s goodness.

The total plan is as God has already foreseen; and is unravelled as the history of providence rolls on, or as the theologians infer above - should the present veil be torn from their eyes.

PJD

[If you haven’t got answers on the Omni thread – I suggest you say so there (smile)]



PJD.....with due deference and reverence nevertheless saints are not infallible for its seems God could not have created a better world than the one He did create and met with His approval as "very good"-jimc
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It was "Very Good" Jimc, until man decided he could do better. Eden was perfect - Adam & Eve were perfect, God gave them dominion over all the creatures. It was paradise but they wanted more. They freely chose to disobey the only rule and eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge in the hope of achieving God-like status and instead opened the door to suffering and pain.
Whether one believes that the account in Genisis is literal or allegorical is, to some degree, irrelevant. We still have the situation of man disobeying God and believing he can know everything.
KatyA
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PJD


Yes jim1 - you have me there; cannot argue with your principle. Only thing I can think of (not to be awkward for the sake of it mind you) - is that 'very good' doesn't read as an absolute. Perhaps that excuses the Saints for discussing the matter in the terms they did. You can argue with them when you meet them up there (smile).

PJD
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jimc1
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PJD
May 16 2007, 05:45 PM
Yes jim1 - you have me there; cannot argue with your principle. Only thing I can think of (not to be awkward for the sake of it mind you) - is that 'very good' doesn't read as an absolute. Perhaps that excuses the Saints for discussing the matter in the terms they did. You can argue with them when you meet them up there (smile).

PJD


Thank you very much PJD,very kind-good with God would be very good whilst very good would be very,very,very good-after our conference and conclusion up there I do my very best to get a message to you down there-jimc
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