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Blue Hor Zu / Odeon Counterfeit Labels / Cover
Topic Started: Jun 26 2017, 03:16 PM (273 Views)
meaning-less
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I am looking at a copy of Revolver, German Hor Zu with Blue labels and two Black Hor Zu symbols. This is a 1969 SHZE 186 issue.
My question is does anyone know if the German Horzu / Odeon issues of this title were ever counterfeited? The seller feels that the labels AND cover for this particular copy are both counterfeited.
The labels have a wide pressing ring.
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muffmasterh
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meaning-less,Jun 26 2017
03:16 PM
I am looking at a copy of Revolver, German Hor Zu with Blue labels and two Black Hor Zu symbols. This is a 1969 SHZE 186 issue.
My question is does anyone know if the German Horzu / Odeon issues of this title were ever counterfeited? The seller feels that the labels AND cover for this particular copy are both counterfeited.
The labels have a wide pressing ring.

do these pressings have any great value ? if not i see no reason for faking them.
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servi
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Yes, Revolver has been counterfeited and also the World's best on blue label. Possibly others exist. They have a rim label and poor label print. These were made in the late 1970's, not to imitate a rare original but to earn money from selling records that were produced cheap and for which no royalties were paid (sort of pirate releases). Let it be on Apple is another such example (fake USA pressing, very abundant in Europe).
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servi
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I saw the Revolver counterfeit years ago in a German shop, much more expensive than a genuine pressing. The counterfeit is extremely rare compared to the genuine pressing and may be desirable to the (German) collector who collects everything....
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meaning-less
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Servi, why would a counterfeit issue be rare or expensive? In most instances counterfeits of anything are naturally less valued.
What do you mean by "rim label"?
I am curious about the wide pressing ring on these labels. To my memory I have not seen wide rings on these Blue SHZE label Hor Zu issues for Revolver or any other title.
Incidentally, the labels do lack full, rich color. The matrices are:
Seite 1 SHZE-186-A-1
Seite 2 SHZE-186-B-1. Both Seites hand etched.
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servi
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They would be rare because very small quantities are pressed sometimes in comparison to the genuine pressing (not for "Introducing the Beatles" though). These blue Odeon counterfeits are not easy to find (but also not very collectible for most collectors either) and rarity is not equal to high value in such cases. . But some collectors collect everything and also want counterfeits from a certain country. Some collectors may mistake these for contract pressings. Personally I would not pay a premium for such pressings....
Concerning the rim : IIRC they have a pressing ring. The handwritten matrices confirm these are counterfeits.
Do you have this LP or are you considering buying it ?
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socorro
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I think I saw that one and was mildly tempted.

All things being equal, real ones will have more value, but rarity and expense also go hand in hand. Real copies are quite plentiful.

By contrast, fake and real copies of ITB are both plentiful. The real ones have value, the fakes very little.

Added: Looks like Servi beat me to it by 2 minutes.
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servi
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socorro,Jun 26 2017
07:21 PM
By contrast, fake and real copies of ITB are both plentiful.  The real ones have value, the fakes very little.

Here in Europe you can find at least 50 fakes for every original ITB. Record fairs and second hand websites are flooded with ITB counterfeits. IMO it's the worst Beatles release EVER. Ugly photograph, poor pressing and poor quality cardboard cover. A lot of my antipathy is based on the huge amount of these counterfeit pressings. Literally every record dealer in my country has a copy for sale...
I can imagine that some collector of German pressings would pay around 25 euro for a blue Odeon counterfeit (when he has all the original ones). But most would consider this a non-collectible pressing.
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muffmasterh
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servi,Jun 26 2017
07:32 PM
socorro,Jun 26 2017
07:21 PM
By contrast, fake and real copies of ITB are both plentiful.  The real ones have value, the fakes very little.

Here in Europe you can find at least 50 fakes for every original ITB. Record fairs and second hand websites are flooded with ITB counterfeits. IMO it's the worst Beatles release EVER. Ugly photograph, poor pressing and poor quality cardboard cover. A lot of my antipathy is based on the huge amount of these counterfeit pressings. Literally every record dealer in my country has a copy for sale...
I can imagine that some collector of German pressings would pay around 25 euro for a blue Odeon counterfeit (when he has all the original ones). But most would consider this a non-collectible pressing.

50 ? more like 50,000 lol

only about 20 or so copies are known to exist of the pressing that the faked itb's pretend to be.
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socorro
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It's not surprising the ratio is like that in Europe, considering the originals were not sold outside the US. Here, it isn't nearly as bad but I still would say fakes are more common. Nearly all version 1 stereo column backs are fake (99.9+%), but probably the majority of mono copies are real.
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bruno
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I am the one who sold that fake German Horzu Revolver. I bought a collection of Beatles records and it was odd as 90%+ were all USA originals and reissues and mixed in with all these was a couple of 80's German, and UK reissues. This Counterfeit Revolver was in there. It stuck out like a sore thumb. Never saw one before. Showed it to another fellow Beatle collector who has seen just about everything and he thought it odd that someone would go thru the trouble to make a blue label counterfeit.

The labels had inferior quality and were somewhat blurry. The cover did not have the exact cover construction of the Legit Blue Horzu. It was an odd duck and I debated whether to keep it or not. It went on Ebay since I'm not really into counterfeits of that variety.

So that's the story! I no longer have label pics of it since I sold it to the thread starter.
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bruno
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Oh and the by the way, it did have a hand etched matrix.

And this is the item number if you want to look it up...


162540702894


I delete my photos after I sell my items.
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meaning-less
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Can anyone say what other counterfeit LP's are desirable to collectors, Beatles or otherwise?
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socorro
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Hard to say with basic knockoffs (trying to emulate a specific commercial release, like the stereo version 1 ITB, this Revolver, the US LIB, the Israeli Beatles in Italy).

For pirate releases (unauthorized but not emulating a particular commercial release), the two Iranian LPs (and the roughly half dozen Top4 EPs with Beatles PS and only Beatles tracks) are highly collectible and fetch pretty serious coin.

There are several Thai pirate LPs with unique compilations that are sought by many collectors.

The Taiwanese pirate LPs are prized by some for their colored vinyl and crude but colorful sleeves.

The Korean and Malaysian pirate LPs are collected but not as actively as the ones listed above.
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5209
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meaning-less,Jun 26 2017
03:16 PM
I am looking at a copy of Revolver, German Hor Zu with Blue labels and two Black Hor Zu symbols. This is a 1969 SHZE 186 issue.
My question is does anyone know if the German Horzu / Odeon issues of this title were ever counterfeited? The seller feels that the labels AND cover for this particular copy are both counterfeited.
The labels have a wide pressing ring.

Just yesterday I saw a counterfeited German Revolver with blue labels at a local shop. The label print is somewhat blurred, it has (yes) a wide pressing ring and the matrix numbers are hand scribed (they should be machine stamped on German originals).
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