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Flipback Lamination Question
Topic Started: May 11 2016, 12:28 PM (389 Views)
RubberSoul21
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Does anyone know why some sleeves pressed by Garrod & Lofthouse in the 1960's UK pressings of course why the laminate did not cover all the Flipback? as some seem to about 3/4 covered was this just on the Rubber Soul and Help pressings?
Any info greatly appreciated.
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muffmasterh
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RubberSoul21,May 11 2016
12:28 PM
Does anyone know why some sleeves pressed by Garrod & Lofthouse in the 1960's UK pressings of course why the laminate did not cover all the Flipback? as some seem to about 3/4 covered was this just on the Rubber Soul and Help pressings?
Any info greatly appreciated.

just part of the process i guess, it could vary greatly, there is no pattern to it
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rsinige
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Shrinkage??
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socorro
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The more common result of shrinkage is delamination, as is common with sleeves from South Africa and Israel.
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admiral halsey
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I must have at least a hundred uk original 60's laminated bags, I'm sure there are variances among them.

AH
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muffmasterh
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socorro,May 11 2016
10:01 PM
The more common result of shrinkage is delamination, as is common with sleeves from South Africa and Israel.

i just think it was part of the lamination process, they varied due to the machine varying. i do not think these have shrunk over the years, i sure as they are today was the same as the day they were made.
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socorro
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Maybe so for the UK sleeves, but I've seen the laminate on the SA and Israel definitely shrink. It actually creates concave bowing of the sleeve, with the laminate separating from the printed surface. The printers in those countries must have used an inferior process or formula for the laminate.
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servi
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Shrinkage sometimes also occurs on the UK Two Virgins and early WA.
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muffmasterh
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servi,May 12 2016
06:45 AM
Shrinkage sometimes also occurs on the UK Two Virgins and early WA.

you can get " laminate lift " which sometimes maybe a result of " shrinkage " but you rarely see that on flipback sleeves which is what the op was referring to.

Two Virgins is a very flimsy sleeve not printed by one of the big boys and so questionable in quality and you are quite right in some circumstances the shrinkage can " bow " the sleeve but thats usually only on a tiny number of fully laminated sleeves in my experience. it is very rare.

I personally do not believe for a minute that the variable lamination depths on flip sleeves is anything other than as they came out of the printers, its just random imho.

as a general rule from the mid 60's the lamination finished just before the flip edges and just before the edge of the front entrance. before 65/6 it was more common for the lamination to go right right up to the front entrance, but in all circumstances there are many exceptions so its not a hard and fast rule.
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RubberSoul21
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muffmasterh,May 12 2016
02:59 PM
servi,May 12 2016
06:45 AM
Shrinkage sometimes also occurs on the UK Two Virgins and early WA.

you can get " laminate lift " which sometimes maybe a result of " shrinkage " but you rarely see that on flipback sleeves which is what the op was referring to.

Two Virgins is a very flimsy sleeve not printed by one of the big boys and so questionable in quality and you are quite right in some circumstances the shrinkage can " bow " the sleeve but thats usually only on a tiny number of fully laminated sleeves in my experience. it is very rare.

I personally do not believe for a minute that the variable lamination depths on flip sleeves is anything other than as they came out of the printers, its just random imho.

as a general rule from the mid 60's the lamination finished just before the flip edges and just before the edge of the front entrance. before 65/6 it was more common for the lamination to go right right up to the front entrance, but in all circumstances there are many exceptions so its not a hard and fast rule.

Just wondered as there must be a reason for it. Maybe Garrod & Lofthouse had slight changes to their printing machines or something.
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muffmasterh
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RubberSoul21,May 12 2016
03:10 PM
muffmasterh,May 12 2016
02:59 PM
servi,May 12 2016
06:45 AM
Shrinkage sometimes also occurs on the UK Two Virgins and early WA.

you can get " laminate lift " which sometimes maybe a result of " shrinkage " but you rarely see that on flipback sleeves which is what the op was referring to.

Two Virgins is a very flimsy sleeve not printed by one of the big boys and so questionable in quality and you are quite right in some circumstances the shrinkage can " bow " the sleeve but thats usually only on a tiny number of fully laminated sleeves in my experience. it is very rare.

I personally do not believe for a minute that the variable lamination depths on flip sleeves is anything other than as they came out of the printers, its just random imho.

as a general rule from the mid 60's the lamination finished just before the flip edges and just before the edge of the front entrance. before 65/6 it was more common for the lamination to go right right up to the front entrance, but in all circumstances there are many exceptions so its not a hard and fast rule.

Just wondered as there must be a reason for it. Maybe Garrod & Lofthouse had slight changes to their printing machines or something.

what i am saying it was random, any bulk manufacturing process will carry the occasional random differences or random batches of , as you say possibly somebody maybe re-alighed the kit after servicing the machines and those batches would have different laminate coverages.

For example the folding process can produce random variations too sometimes the print will appear to shifted upwards or down when in fact the folding process has produced different looking sleeves.

For example I have a Rubber Soul with a white bar at the bottom, but if you check the top, the picture folds over onto the the top flipback. Its either a random mutation or a batch of misfolds, looks rather cool actually.

The mono / stereo designation front indicator also famously wanders about a bit but i doubt somebody made a concious decision to do that.

And i doubt anybody at the time even noticed or cared unless it got really bad.
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RubberSoul21
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muffmasterh,May 12 2016
05:01 PM
RubberSoul21,May 12 2016
03:10 PM
muffmasterh,May 12 2016
02:59 PM
servi,May 12 2016
06:45 AM
Shrinkage sometimes also occurs on the UK Two Virgins and early WA.

you can get " laminate lift " which sometimes maybe a result of " shrinkage " but you rarely see that on flipback sleeves which is what the op was referring to.

Two Virgins is a very flimsy sleeve not printed by one of the big boys and so questionable in quality and you are quite right in some circumstances the shrinkage can " bow " the sleeve but thats usually only on a tiny number of fully laminated sleeves in my experience. it is very rare.

I personally do not believe for a minute that the variable lamination depths on flip sleeves is anything other than as they came out of the printers, its just random imho.

as a general rule from the mid 60's the lamination finished just before the flip edges and just before the edge of the front entrance. before 65/6 it was more common for the lamination to go right right up to the front entrance, but in all circumstances there are many exceptions so its not a hard and fast rule.

Just wondered as there must be a reason for it. Maybe Garrod & Lofthouse had slight changes to their printing machines or something.

what i am saying it was random, any bulk manufacturing process will carry the occasional random differences or random batches of , as you say possibly somebody maybe re-alighed the kit after servicing the machines and those batches would have different laminate coverages.

For example the folding process can produce random variations too sometimes the print will appear to shifted upwards or down when in fact the folding process has produced different looking sleeves.

For example I have a Rubber Soul with a white bar at the bottom, but if you check the top, the picture folds over onto the the top flipback. Its either a random mutation or a batch of misfolds, looks rather cool actually.

The mono / stereo designation front indicator also famously wanders about a bit but i doubt somebody made a concious decision to do that.

And i doubt anybody at the time even noticed or cared unless it got really bad.

Yes your right i think the demand at the time would anyone care too much as the deadlines for release would of been top priority. Maybe now things have since advanced a lot, back in the 60's they didnt have the technology we have now i guess.

Unless someone knows a worker at Garrod & Lofthouse who worked the machines i doubt we will know only guess. I personally prefer the laminate right to the edge myself hehe.

The label and inner sleeve variations are enough to drive you mad let alone anything else. :D
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voxish
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Records were considered to be ephemeral and not built to last. People back then (eg me) didn't imagine that one day they'd even be playable in 40+ years let alone collectable!

Regarding laminating/sleeve construction, back then I don't think long-term museum preservation was even considered (or arguably, even should have been considered). Only relatively recently it's been discovered that the acid levels in paper and card due to the manufacturing process actually accelerate decomposition. Many books from the 60s and 70s are in worse shape than much older books because of this, record sleeves will be no different. It's down to the luck of which supplier the production manager chose.
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