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Counterfeiting Out Of Control
Topic Started: Jul 6 2014, 10:43 PM (650 Views)
socorro
Level 5
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Hi all,

The moment we feared and predicted has arrived. I just looked at Parlogram's latest listings, and they include several lots of singles and EPs from Brazil.

I can confirm that at least one of them is a gabybutti special, a fake "export" sleeve made in Brazil for distribution in Paraguay. Look at the back of the Hey Jude single in this listing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Beatles-BRAZIL...=item3ce41db9ed

To my eye, the other two look like fakes as well.

The rest of Parlogram's listings look infected too. These ones raise flags for me:

1. Eight Days A Week looks like gabybutti's handiwork. AHDN EP looks suspicious, AHDN single looks legitimate.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Beatles-BRAZIL...=item43cbf2036e

2. These all look like fakes, especially the Twist And Shout EP (G disc, EX sleeve is a gabybutti giveaway)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Beatles-BRAZIL...=item3ce41da859

3. Ticket To Ride single is definitely a fake, Help EP looks kosher, not sure about the third one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Beatles-BRAZIL...=item3ce41daf4b

4. We Can Work It Out single is definitely fake, Michelle single is probably fake, Yesterday EP looks kosher.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Beatles-BRAZIL...=item3ce41db2f9

5. All You Need Is Love EP and Yellow Submarine singles are fakes. Anna EP looks kosher.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Beatles-BRAZIL...=item3ce41db588

If this garbage is making its way onto Parlogram, then we are all in trouble. Andrew is knowledegeable and is able to command a premium because he has been a reliable gatekeeper against this junk.

I emailed Parlogram and asked him to pull the listings until the wheat and chaff are sorted, but this is really disheartening for me to see regardless of what Andrew does.

Any thoughts?
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the57thbeatle
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Level 4
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Since Tracks auctioned that fake "autographed" White Album recently, I'm not surprised by this. There's precious few dealers who are still totally honest in what they offer (Perry Cox comes to mind, plus of course the good folks here) and where there's big bucks to be made, everyone gets tempted to 'twist the truth' a little. Ebay is infested with fake crap (acetates, demos, modern coloured vinyls), Ebay is not going to prevent the sales of these items, obviously, so it's getting more a matter of being very knowledgable/careful about the things you're buying. It's just a pity even previously trustworthy people like Andrew is falling for this. It also destroys his good reputation, as far as I'm concerned (of course he knows what he's selling and if he isn't -what I refuse to believe- he should at least take note of what people like socorro are telling him.
But it IS worrying, yes.

PS I see he's withdrawn these items. Good on him!
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socorro
Level 5
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Ed, I must clarify that Andrew quickly removed the suspicious items after I contacted him. I count him as one of the good guys in this fight.

I would agree that usually he knows exactly what he is selling, but this is a unique circumstance -- he is in approximately the eighth month of selling a huge worldwide collection. He didn't go out and aquire these items one by one, he was commissioned to sell a collection that included approximately 3,000 records.

The Brazil singles are a tiny part of a huge collection, 99% of which is totally legit. They obviously were acquired by whoever commissioned Andrew to sell the whole collection. Based on the depth and quality of the collection, I am willing to bet the original collector bought them from gabybutti without any inkling what they were.

That's the insidious part. Once gabybutti has put this garbage into the stream of commerce, somebody who resells it can be acting in complete good faith. It is the article itself that remains a problem.

This is exactly why ebay has its head up its ass in its refusal to do anything about gabybutti.

PS: Ed, I just noted your update. Thanks for that.
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servi
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I agree socorro and it’s good to see that Parlogram removed the fakes, never doubted he was an honest guy (though I never buy from him because I can not afford it). But what exactly could Ebay do about this ? You can’t expect Ebay to have experts like (some of) us around here who know about the ”George’s hair test”, the “Taste of Honey test”, the “handwritten matrix test” or the “you can’t read the time on George’s watch test” to determine fakes. Part of the problem is the buyers, some have more money than brains, others are ill-informed and should find information first before buying. Caveat emptor…. IMO, a dedicated collector will be able to tell a fake and therefore the market is not threatened by this (no one on this forum would buy such a Brasil fake sleeve, hence its value is zero in a community of dedicated collectors). In other words, these fakes do not go into the "stream of commerce" because true, well-informed collectors don't buy them.
Even if 10 people tell Ebay the thing is a fake, how will you ever be able to prove it ? Especially if more copies have come up for sale, it’s easy to say that it’s real. It surprises me that (luckily) nobody thus far has thought of coming up with a COA for records, similar to the situation with autographs.
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socorro
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Servi, I think you are too optimistic about the actual level of expertise of most serious collectors. It's hard to be truly expert outside a narrow range. For example, Henry is an encyclopedia when it comes to the UK records but he's stated emphatically that his expertise ends at the water. I've walked off the cliff at least twice.

In this instance, gabybutti has been pumping out fakes for years -- probably hundreds of not thousands of fakes. I genuinely believe that if you could ban gabybutti and dmilecki, you would cut the counterfeiting problem in half. The two of them are that prolific and that dishonest.

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servi
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Yes, these 2 hold 50% of the "market".
My point was that a serious collector either has the knowledge (because he collects the stuff), or should inform himself if he wants to explore new areas of collecting. Should Henry ever become interested in Brasil and Paraguay singles, I am sure he would inform himself before handing over his money. OR read the books and find that the singles are not in there. Or read the warnings on several discography websites or best of all: read this forum. That's why I think these fakes are no threat at all, because a serious collector would never even consider bidding on this crap.
And about acetates: how stupid can you be, to pay $$$ via internet with a seller that has dozens and dozens of Beatles acetates for sale (plus Stones, Hendrix etc.) ??
Socorro, when did you walk off the cliff ? It happened to me also once. More than 25 yrs ago when I spent around $20 on an Introducing the Beatles (a classic fault). It was a lot of money for me at the time. It never happened after that (I hope ;) )
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socorro
Level 5
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Socorro walks off the cliff:

1. WA with black & silver one box Parlophone labels, in UK top loader sleeve. I impulsively bought it (for an embarrasingly large sum) in the erroneous belief that it was an export version. Of course, as we all know, it was pressed in Singapore for distribution in Malaysia and Hong Kong.

2. 1962-1966 Red Album. The seller hinted that it was from Mozambique, but added just enough question marks and weasel words that I deemed it not worth my while to make a fuss when it turned out to be from South Africa. I knew enough to look for the Mozambique manufacturing credits but took the leap anyway. If memory serves, the price of the set was less than price of shipping, so it hardly made sense to send it back.
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muffmasterh
Level 7
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yes indeed, I do like to stay in my comfort zone, if I stray out i do like to do some research but research can be dangerous too and lead you into all kinds of listing mistakes..so I tend to only sell outside my comfort zone if i've kind of ended up with something i need to get rid of lol !!!

I have a hord of non UK stuff which i will list eventually but its nothing too obscure, that Uruguay AR and several Spain singles EP's, no Mongolia issues sorry lol !!

Expect a load of mistakes when i do

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G&L
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again... first AR and now WA

WA Y/B
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