| Welcome to Beatles Collecting. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Another Fake Demo On Ebay | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 12 2012, 03:06 PM (3,571 Views) | |
| TheItalianFab4 | Sep 12 2012, 08:32 PM Post #16 |
|
Level 5
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Most of the times I think the sellers know what they're actually selling, it's impossible to me that they do not know it....but here the problem's not the seller, but the people because they do not inform themselves. |
![]() |
|
| TheItalianFab4 | Sep 12 2012, 09:06 PM Post #17 |
|
Level 5
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Anything goes....with about 5 days and 12 hours to the end of the auction it's right now at £920 with 12 bids.... |
![]() |
|
| socorro | Sep 12 2012, 09:10 PM Post #18 |
|
Level 5
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
No, the words "demo" and "acetate" do not magically remove any possible liability for fraud. The key to fraud is whether the seller, by word (for example, the written description) or action (for example, the inclusion pictures) represented to the seller that the item was something that it wasn't, and the buyer reasonably relied on the misinformation in making the purchasing decision. In this case, the words "demo" and "acetate" have accepted meanings meanings in the record collecting community. I would think that, by definition, a demo or acetate must be authentic (i.e., made by the record company for distribution to reviewers/DJs in the case of a demo, or made by the record company or recording studio for pre-manufacturing review by the artist, record company management, etc.). On occasion I will see a listing where the item is valuable -- if authentic -- and there is some question concerning its authenticity. I appreciate it when the seller points this out. At that point, it is a matter of calculated risk. If it is a knock off, I probably overpaid. If it is authentic, I probably got a bargain. Just recently I saw an example of this. The seller was listing a promo copy of The Beatles & Frank Ifield. It came in the portrait cover, with spine print and a pretty convincing veejay sticker on the shrink. The seller admitted it might be a counterfeit, but wasn't expert enough to tell. Somebody quickly bought it as a BIN for $185, and the buyer had a ton of feedback, suggesting he was a serious collector. If both the disc and the cover were counterfeits, he probably paid about $100-125 too much (even copies of this LP command some money). If either the disc or the cover were authentic, the buyer made out like a bandit. If they are both real, he got one of the crown jewels of beatles collecting. My gut told me they were VERY good reproductions, but what do I know? As you can imagine, this is only worth actually litigating if the item in question is very valuable. |
![]() |
|
| dawkie | Sep 12 2012, 09:26 PM Post #19 |
|
Level 2
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
So the poor so and so who will end up paying over £1000 pounds for the aforementioned fake demo will he / she have a legal right to claim their money back. Via what method...??? |
![]() |
|
| socorro | Sep 12 2012, 09:48 PM Post #20 |
|
Level 5
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I would say that the best avenue would be the ebay resolution center. In the US, there are small claims courts, but that probably would only work if buyer and seller are in proximity. Evernif similar courts exist in the UK, that would not be of much use to a foreign buyer. There's no way in hell that even a 1000 GBP record is worth the cost of litigation in a regular court. If the seller wont accept a return and the buyer can't get any traction from the ebay resolution center, he's probably SOL. I had that happen on a much smaller scale -- I never received three LPs that I paid about $160 for, and I waited too long to start a case with ebay out of a misguided desire to give the seller the benefit of the doubt. The bottom line is that the system runs on trust, and some people will exploit that trust. A minority of buyers will make phony claims of nondelivery, and a minority of sellers will misrepresent the authenticity or condition of what they sell. Some people cannot stand to be ripped off even once, and do not participate. For myself, I balance the benefit (being able to buy hard to find records, sometimes at dirt cheap prices), against the risks (LPs not as described, LPs paid for but not delivered). |
![]() |
|
| dawkie | Sep 12 2012, 10:07 PM Post #21 |
|
Level 2
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Cheers socorro. Sound advice. On the positive side, the majority of buyers and sellers really go out of their way to provide good service. Especially the guys on this website! :D |
![]() |
|
| socorro | Sep 13 2012, 03:00 AM Post #22 |
|
Level 5
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I'm glad I could help, and I agree that the overwhelming majority of ebayers (buyers AND sellers) are decent people who want to make money/collect LPs but also value their integrity and the good wishes of the people they deal with. And frankly, I think sellers like Henry and Ross (I'm sure there are others, but those two come immediately to mind as sellers on the board with whom I've done business) actually command a small premium because they so clearly know what they're talking about. Their listings educate the seller, and give that extra dose of confidence to bump their bid, knowing that they aren't being led astray. It's one thing to plaster RARE!!!! RARE!!!! RARE!!!! all over your listing, and quite another to explain in clear terms why an LP is special, and worth bidding extra. And, of course, providing big clear pictures so the buyer can see the condition, quality, and features that justify the bump. Also, in purely mercenary terms, I probably get 10 amazing bargains and 20 solid deals for every bad experience. The balance is just overwhelmingly positive. Not to mention, of course, that most of the stuff I really like is only available online (for example, LPs from South America, Scandinavia, Africa, and OZ/NZ/SEA). |
![]() |
|
| servi | Sep 13 2012, 06:56 AM Post #23 |
|
Level 5
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
How will the buyer ever be able to prove this is a fake ? There's only a handful of experts who will be able to tell the difference, the man in the street won't know. It will be the buyer's word against that of the seller. And only people who believe this is genuine will bid anyway, so probably there will be no claim (unless the fake is really poorly done of course). There is a responsibility for both buyer and seller IMO. Some have more money than brains. Imagine the buyer thinks it's genuine and he is happy with it for the rest of his life until he dies, is that any different from the situation where he would buy a genuine copy and is equally happy with it ? Collecting is all between the ears. I have seen people who have a "Beatles LP" and think they have the holy grail, just because it is vinyl... BTW, how do you guys think this fake was done ? A paste-over on a standard stock copy ? But then a simple fake colour print of the label will not suffice, or would it. So is there a professional forgerer operating on the Beatles demo market ? |
![]() |
|
| harveyw | Sep 13 2012, 12:02 PM Post #24 |
|
Level 2
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
All this is true. But the "man in the street" doesn't spend £1000+ on a 7" single. I fear, it's simply that -even in a recession- there are some ridiculously wealthy people around with too much time on their hands & not enough knowledge or nous. Trust me, I met a few of them last night. As for how it was done, I guess they scanned a non-Beatle Parlophone demo, photoshopped out the title/artist/publishing details etc, typed the new ones in (they've also redone the "All Rights..." type here, rather unnecessarily I'd have said), then printed it off. It's then stuck over the labels on a stock copy, cutting out the centre hole and vents for the push-out. For future ref, these are the two giveaway signs: non-standard Parlophone typeface, and jagged cuts around the vents. This one has both. 3-out-of-10, must try harder. Finally, my theory on the "JR" stamper number. If a demo has a JR stamper you can be 99% certain it's genuine. However, just because it doesn't have a JR stamper, it doesn't mean it's a fake. I trhink we've discussed this elsewhere, but I certainly have genuine Parlophone demos (including an All You Need Is Love demo) with standard stamper numbers. |
![]() |
|
| TheItalianFab4 | Sep 13 2012, 12:51 PM Post #25 |
|
Level 5
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
That's right servi. I remeber I went to my 1st fair last May and I think I already had a good knowledge for what my interests are in Beatles' lps and 45s....that's to say that I immediately rejected repressings of 70s of any kind and, for example, a clearly fake ITB (the name and the title were seprated by the hole....): what actually I'm worried about (but don't know even why, I do not even care....) is that a poor guy who has totally no experience in those things could buy that light blue labelled repress of Tutti for €150....and how many of represses were there....you cannot even imagine how many! Well, if someone wants to solve the problem of demos or acetates, it's simple....he doesn't have to buy them.... |
![]() |
|
| the57thbeatle | Sep 13 2012, 01:05 PM Post #26 |
|
Level 4
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
What bugs me much more than fake demos is this guy: http://www.ebay.com/sch/ferroflex/m.html?i...=p2047675.l2562 He's been selling fake acetates for years and years now, and still gets away with it. Not only does he litter the acetate market with fake b*llsh*t, he even fakes Perry Cox authentification papers!! Steer away from this guy AND also every Italian seller who sells so-called Beatles or Apple acetates, they're all fake crap. :angry: :angry: :angry: |
![]() |
|
| the57thbeatle | Sep 13 2012, 01:11 PM Post #27 |
|
Level 4
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I have no sympathy for stupid people who'll pay through the nose for a fake item, or way way above the list price (unless they knowlingly do so). There are quite a few very decent websites and forums (such as this one here) where you can get very good info on such items in the quiet of your own living room, without any hurry or stress (which you may have on record fairs). I would certainly never pay big money for an item without previously checking whether it has ever been counterfeit. It's a different matter when the seller willingly (or maybe even unconsciously) puts the wrong info in his listing, implying that it is a genuine item when it isn't. But if some stupid millionaire's son gets bored and buys a Beatles Demo record for £3,000 just to show off at his next party and buys a fake one, I can only laugh..... |
![]() |
|
| TheItalianFab4 | Sep 13 2012, 01:17 PM Post #28 |
|
Level 5
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
If they wanna do so, they can....we don't simply care.... |
![]() |
|
| the57thbeatle | Sep 13 2012, 01:21 PM Post #29 |
|
Level 4
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
And if you go to record fairs, you should be prepared. There are literally hundreds of very good discography books which will tell you everything about originals vs. reissues, reproductions, etc etc. And when in doubt, just don't pay too much, you may have a bargain. |
![]() |
|
| socorro | Sep 13 2012, 04:00 PM Post #30 |
|
Level 5
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Wow, if you're right (and I have no reason to doubt it) then this guy is a cancer on the market. First, if he continually sells high dollar fakes, then he is almost certainly the counterfeiter, or in close cahoots with the counterfeiter. Second, faking a Perry Cox COA undermines the confidence that such a COA should bring. Third, he's doing it on a big enough scale that it makes it pretty unpleasant to collect some of the most unique and interesting recordings. If I were Perry Cox, I might try suing the guy. This may be one of the few areas of the law where a winning plaintiff could recover his legal fees from the defendant. Of course, that only works if he has the money to pay, and if he had the money to pay, he probably wouldn't be making counterfeit acetates. |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Singles and EPs · Next Topic » |





![]](http://z6.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)




8:15 AM Jul 11