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| French Odeon Ep- "we Can Work It Out" +3 Meo 107 | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 31 2012, 02:57 PM (970 Views) | |
| meaning-less | Aug 31 2012, 02:57 PM Post #1 |
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Level 3
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I realize this question is a bit East of England, but I'd like to know about a 7" French Odeon EP, MEO 107, "We Can Work It Out" +3-Red label, large Odeon at top. There is a circled M on the right side of the labels. What significance, if any, does this symbol hold? |
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| the57thbeatle | Aug 31 2012, 03:04 PM Post #2 |
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Level 4
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I think it simply stands for "Mono". |
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| namralos | Aug 31 2012, 03:22 PM Post #3 |
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Level 5
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Not sure about that. It may mean "Medium." EP's used to carry the term "Medium," indicating the quality of the vinyl. I believe "S" stood for "superior" (superieur) and appeared on most LP's. |
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| servi | Aug 31 2012, 08:28 PM Post #4 |
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Level 5
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Could be "Medium" indeed as namralos mentions. The book "La France et les Beatles" shows several production sheets for singles, EPs and LPs, which show always a "Catégorie" that was determined for the release. The book shows production sheets for EPs with M (Medium) as Catégorie, for singles with L (Luxe) as Catégorie and for LPs with S (Standard) or U (not explained) as Catégorie. Unfortunately there is not much further explanation given, only about letter codes found on sleeves: "Les different lettres qui precedent la reference (L ou J pur les 45 tours et T ou U pour les 33 tours) correspondent á un code-prix determiné", so the letter codes on the label may indicate a price code rather than vinyl quality but I am not completely sure. |
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| namralos | Aug 31 2012, 11:32 PM Post #5 |
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Level 5
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Ah, "standard!" Excellent. The "S" was the one I wasn't certain about. I have seen LP's with a "U" notation. The French saying certainly MEANS that it's a price code. I have not seen a "T" code. I have seen "L" on simples (singles) in the FO series. I have also seen this referred to as the "Simples Luxe" series. The picture sleeve and label for "All You Need is Love" have "LUXE" spelled out on them, as does the Hollies single numbered FO 101. This was also when the EP series (MEO) was dubbed "super 45 tours." As late as MEO 176 (from 1969), all the EP's in that series appear to have the "M" code on the label, although not all of them have it on the cover. Now...Here's what bugs me about the price code idea. Aside from FOS 107 and FOS 108 (which have no mark), the singles on the 1966 red label in the FOS series -- commonly called a "juke box" series -- are all marked with "M," as far as I know. I have seen "Michelle" (1966 label) and "Yellow Submarine" by the Beatles, plus singles FOS 106, FOS 109, FOS 111 on that label. FOS 112 has no designation. It seems that they all have white labels from at least 116 on. Why would they mark jukebox singles with a code indicating that they cost as much as EP's? Were they actually test-market singles? Test-market singles that became a jukebox series a year later? |
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| servi | Sep 1 2012, 10:22 AM Post #6 |
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Level 5
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Yes, you are right about the U. Revolver CLSO rereleases exist with a U, but I don't know what U denotes. And never seen a T either, at least not on a Beatles release. The book divides the singles into "Les Super 45 Tours" (EPs), of which most have the M marking on the label, except MEO21.002, MEO102 (which do have the M on the sleeve though) and MMT (which is understandable because it's 2 discs and gatefold sleeve). Then there is the "Les 45 tours juke-box", for which only some singles of the FOS series have the M marking, while others have no markings. With M: FOS20.050 and FOS110, without M: FOS101, 102, 103, 104, 107, 108. The consensus seems that most jukebox are in the Catégorie "Simple" and thus lack a letter on the label. They may have been cheaper than the EPs. All info taken from pictures in the book, there may be variants/exceptions !! Finally there's "Les 45 Tours simples", AYNIL, Hello G, Lady M and Hey J which have LUXE or L, possibly because they came with picture cover unlike the jukebox singles ? So putatively the increase in price was indicated by: no code ("Simple", 7") --> L/LUXE (7" picture cover)--> M ("Medium", EP) --> U (Abbr unknown, LP) --> S ("Standard", LP) ?? No clue where the J on some sleeves fits in (jukebox ?). We need a French expert on this forum, like the authors Jean-Claude Hocquet and Eric Krasker for example.... |
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| namralos | Sep 1 2012, 05:06 PM Post #7 |
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Level 5
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So, here are the records from 1966-early 1967 that I have seen... *MEO 101 Back cover marked (M); original label marked (M); MEO 102 – 27 Ja 66 Cover marked (M); original label marked Medium; original label marked (M); reissue label marked M. Medium mark (M) mark FOS 101 – 04 Fe 66 Original label unmarked; *MEO 103 Cover marked (M); *MEO 104 Cover marked (M); MEO 105 – 21 Fe 66 Back cover marked (M); original label marked (M); reissue label marked (M) FOS 102 – 24 Fe 66 MEO 106 – 04 Mr 66 Back cover marked (M); reissue label marked M FOS 103 – 17 Mr 66 Original label unmarked; FOS 104 – 17 Mr 66 Original label unmarked; MEO 107 – 21 Mr 66 Back cover marked (M); original label marked (M); reissue label unmarked MEO 108 – 28 Ap 66 Back cover marked (M); original label marked (M); reissue label marked M. LABEL STYLE CHANGE MEO 112 – 05 My 66 Back cover marked (M); label marked (M). MEO 113 – 12 My 66 Back cover marked (M); label marked (M). MEO 116 – 09 Jn 66 Cover marked (M); label marked (M). FOS 107 – 23 Jn 66 Label unmarked MEO 119 – 27 Jn 66 Cover marked (M); label marked (M). FOS 108 – 21 Jl 66 Label unmarked; *MEO 123 Cover marked (M); FOS 110 – 12 Se 66 Label marked (M) *FOS 111 Label marked (M) *MEO 125 Cover marked (M); MEO 126 – 31 Oc 66 Cover marked (M); label marked (M). *MEO 129 Cover marked (M); label marked (M). *MEO 130 Cover marked (M); MEO 134 Cover marked (M); label marked (M). *FO 101 Cover marked LUXE; label marked LUXE FO 103 – 13 Jl 67 Cover marked LUXE; label marked LUXE LPs LSO 101 – Back cover marked (S); original label marked (S); original label marked S. LSO 102 – Back cover marked (S); original label marked (S); original label marked S; reissue label marked S. LSO 103 – Back cover marked (S); original label marked (S); original label marked S; LSO 104 – black EMI label marked S; LSO 105 – Back cover marked (S); original label marked (S); black label CLSO 105 marked U My Conclusions It looks like all the records in 1966 were supposed to be marked, but some were not. "Medium" was quickly replaced with (M) on labels -- probably by February. After that, (M) remained on EP labels, but nothing was used on the FOS series singles -- possibly because they were juke box records? After the label change, (M) was standard on all EP's, with no marks for the FOS series until after June. Then a few new releases and reissues in the FOS series came out with the (M) mark. As I said, I have seen 106, 109, 110, and 111. After that, the FOS series loses the (M) mark and eventually goes to a white label. In 1967, the FO series was introduced. These start with LUXE and wind up being marked L. Probably at the same time or a bit later in the year, the MEO EP's lose their circles and are simply marked M on the label. The U price code for LP's seems to be even later -- possibly 1969. |
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| meaning-less | Sep 1 2012, 07:11 PM Post #8 |
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Level 3
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I believe the MEO 107 EP in question to be a 1966 intermediary label variation. |
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| servi | Sep 1 2012, 07:21 PM Post #9 |
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Level 5
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That's great info ! Why would we need an expert from France.... I can recommend the book to anyone collecting France, It lists 11 label variants for the "Les Beatles 1965" LP for example, where most of us would be glad to have just one ! The CLSO Revolver (with U) was issued April 20 1968 BTW (according to the production sheet), so for this LP the change from S to U was made at that time. The U was not used for other Beatles rereleases after 1968 to my knowledge (e.g. Oldies and SPLHCB reissues always kept the S), but correct me if I am wrong. On the front of this CLSO Revolver sleeve it says "Gravure Universelle", so the U may be for "Universelle" but this is speculation. But why only Revolver ? I think your observation about the circled M changing into M is correct. There is a similar pattern for the S on the LPs, where the first red label releases (or y/b for SPLHCB) have the circled S, while the black and blue label rereleases (with same release no. ) lack the circle. I previously thought these were simple label variants (e.g. the red label SPLHB with or without the circled S), but this may actually differentiate early from later pressings. Do you have any information about the time of release of the black and blue label Odeon LPs ? E.g. Sgt Pepper was available in mono on these labels, so I assume these are all pre-1970 ? Also there are some LPs that have the SACEM logo instead of the BIEM logo (e.g. the blue label Pepper), any thoughts why these were issued ? |
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| namralos | Sep 1 2012, 11:38 PM Post #10 |
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Level 5
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Let's see what else we can figure out about the transition to the EEC numbering. After the release of A Collection of Beatles Oldies (S)LSO-107, French Odeon seems to have abandoned their numbering system for LP's. The Ron Goodwin LP, Music for an Arabian Night (LSO-108), is the highest-numbered album I can find in the LSO- series. This likely means that Odeon abandoned their system at the end of 1966 -- except for existing records, which they continued to press. That left the LP's following foreign catalog numbers for any records that were not French in origin, and they imported covers for those foreign albums. Sgt. Pepper came out on the red label (mono/stereo) with the PMC/PCS 7027 number. The use of Spanish and German numbers for the MMT EP may indicate that the problem was the manufacture of the covers. Whatever the source of the covers, that's how they marked their albums. EP's continued using the MEO- prefix, and singles continued with the FO- prefix for the red Odeon 7" records released until some time in January or February, 1969. The change to the black EMI label for LP's (and black/yellow Parlo label for Pepper) probably occurred in 1967, as Pepper is fairly likely to be found on the black Parlophone label in mono. Other LP's are found in mono, too, including Help! (LSO-104) and (I believe) the Oldies album. Most albums (like Help!) wound up switching to stereo only when the EEC numbering came along. During this period, Revolver switched from LSO/SLSO to the CLSO prefix, and copies exist with "Gravure universelle" in a sticker on top of the mono and stereo catalog numbers on the front cover. Your information about Revolver in 1968 fits this timeline quite well. Based on the mini-ads on the back of sleeves, "universelle" (universal) appears to have meant "stereo, but compatible with mono." Revolver was marketed that way, which seems to have been what the "C" stood for. However, if "universelle" were what the "U" meant, why wouldn't the "S" have gone away? It seems more likely that U was simply the price. Abbey Road has a "U" code on the back cover. Later on, I believe they used "Y" as a code for a while. I have seen stickers on back covers reading "Y". The last single I can locate in the FO- series is FO-148, which is the Beatles single "Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da." The singles in all the old series (Capitol, Tamla, Odeon, etc.) stop some time in January, 1969. Now, the sky blue label (bleu ciel) must have come about in 1968, again before most albums were pressed in stereo...and long enough prior to the early-1969 change to EEC numbering to allow for a reasonable number of records to be pressed. I know of LSO-102 on this label. There were several EEC series for EMI. The main series seems to have had LP's and 45's together in one series -- starting with 04000. Album 2C 064-04000 (on Harvest) was a Deep Purple album. The next record was a single from that album, "River Deep Mountain High," 2C 006-04001. The next record was the second pressing of the Yellow Submarine album, Apple 2C 062-04002. |
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| servi | Sep 2 2012, 08:11 AM Post #11 |
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Level 5
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C=Compatible, makes sense. The production sheet for the red label CLSO says: "Annule et replace les LSO et SLSO 105". Unless anyone has ever seen a black or blue label mono (LSO) Revolver, this would mean that from 1968 onwards Revolver was only available as a stereo pressing, which was Compatible with mono due to "Gravure Universelle". It was made from previously made matrices: "Faces deja graveés pour le SLSO105". The U-release may have had a different price than the S-series as you say and that's why the U replaced the S. That still leaves open the possibility that U=Universelle, a "new" price categorie from 1968 onwards. In contrast, SPLHCB was not released in the compatible/universelle mode and therefore does not have the C or the U. Separate mono and stereo releases exist for the first pressing on y/b Parlo label (circled S), the red label (circled S), the 2nd red label (uncircled S), the black label (uncircled S) and the blue Odeon (uncircled S), although the black and blue label mono releases are hard to find. Why was Revolver the only LP given the Universelle treatment ? It may be related to the rapid phasing out of mono releases. Concerning the Apple LPs: the price code on sleeves was before the release no. (U or T) while "Y" was after the release no., similar to what is seen on German sleeves. But T and Y are never found on LP labels, as J is never found on single labels... |
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| servi | Sep 2 2012, 08:17 AM Post #12 |
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Level 5
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Correct and LSO 101, 103 and 104 were also released on the sky blue label (no information about 107, I know only of SLSO 107 on blue). LSO 104 was not released because it changed to CLSO as discussed above. SPLHCB was released as PMC and PCS on the sky blue label, so the blue label may have been used in 1968-1969. |
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| namralos | Sep 3 2012, 11:36 PM Post #13 |
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Level 5
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Servi... Apparently French Odeon was still printing red labels in 1968 when they switched Revolver to the "U" code and "CLSO-" prefix. There's one one eBay. Notice that the label has an added stereo/mono playability statement. |
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| servi | Sep 4 2012, 07:02 AM Post #14 |
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Level 5
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Yes, I have that one as well. The price asked here is a bit steep, these are not too rare IMO, nor as desirable as the early French Odeon pressings. The stereo/mono compatibility statement is also on the blue label PCS SPLHCB, even though this was released simultaneously in mono on the same label because it was not issued as Gravure Universelle. The statement remained at least until 1970 (maybe even later), as I have a Sentimental journey that has it on the sleeve. |
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| namralos | Sep 4 2012, 02:35 PM Post #15 |
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Level 5
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Here's a stereo/mono compatible Odeon issue from 1971, but look at the back cover. sticker? |
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